Counterfeit

#1
The real thing

As I look at what the nominal church and world have to offer these days, I am troubled by what both are displaying as a gift of discernment or spiritualism. I am not talking about discerning of spirits (I Cor 12:10) but an actual gift working through a God called man whereby the Lord is able to discern the thoughts and intents of a man's heart. On one side we have the world watching the "Crossing Over" program where people are lead to believe they can converse with their dead relatives after probing questions are asked by one who claims they have such a gift. In the nominal church world, we have those who attempt to demonstrate a gift whereby they can discern people's thoughts and intents with vague questions. My question is this. Are you aware of a man of God (living) who has such a gift that is true, 100% accurate, requires no questions to be asked and the results are increased faith for the recipient to believe on what they are praying for? In other words, where is the real thing?

bro joe
 

Chaya

New Member
#2
In Hebrews we are told that the mature have trained their senses to discern good and evil. We need to mature our palate, this is a practice that is required of all believers, and we have to protect the babies that would gulp down the poison left out within their reach.

Discernment is a gift, like other spiritual gifts, and this gift is not usually welcome. I believe this is my gift. I do not practice it perfectly, just as a person who has the gift of teaching doesn't teach perfectly, but we grow in our gifts.

What it is like to me is sensing whether something is true or false, good or evil, like you would smell or taste something. I can tell something is off. Then I go and examine it and look at scripture. But I can often discern whether something is right or not before I examine it more closely - does that make sense?

Shalom
Claire
Endtime Chaverim (friends)
http://www.merville.biz/chaverim/
 

lawrensons

CoffE Moderator
Staff member
#3
Re: The real thing

Originally posted by josreb
As I look at what the nominal church and world have to offer these days, I am troubled by what both are displaying as a gift of discernment or spiritualism. I am not talking about discerning of spirits (I Cor 12:10) but an actual gift working through a God called man whereby the Lord is able to discern the thoughts and intents of a man's heart. On one side we have the world watching the "Crossing Over" program where people are lead to believe they can converse with their dead relatives after probing questions are asked by one who claims they have such a gift. In the nominal church world, we have those who attempt to demonstrate a gift whereby they can discern people's thoughts and intents with vague questions. My question is this. Are you aware of a man of God (living) who has such a gift that is true, 100% accurate, requires no questions to be asked and the results are increased faith for the recipient to believe on what they are praying for? In other words, where is the real thing?

bro joe
Sorry, maybe I'm having a "moment" but I'm not sure what the question is about. Could you be more specific?
 
#4
Chaya,
What you describe is a gift of discernment wherby one is able to, by the Holy Ghost, discern in their spirit whether another spirit is of God or not and react according to the circumstance at hand. I know those who have such a gift and as you say it is subject to the one who God has given it to in that they must use their spiritual knowledge and experience to read and interpret what He is allowing to be felt and/or seen. This is not what many preachers (Benny Hinn for example) practice when they are speaking to someone and discerning (as Jesus did with the woman at the well) the thoughts and intents of the heart or portions of their life that they may have faith to believe on what God has in store for them at that moment. I hope you understand what I am saying. In others words, these preachers claiming to have such a gift stumble with vague attempts to display that which is perfect in its use and does not require multiple questions be asked in order to provide a response that is accurate for the recipient. The true gift I describe was evident and powerful after the turn of the century when the Holy Ghost fell on belivers on Azusa Street and the gifts of God were restored to the body. For example, without knowing who you or asking you any leading questions one with this gift and by the Holy Ghost is able to tell you your name, where you live, why you are present, your mother's name, when she died, things in your life only you know of and even sin in your life that may be holding you back from receiving from God. They may describe rooms in your home, where you were born and what year you were married. These days many claim to or try to display such a gift have made a mockery of it with many, many people being deceived into thinking it is real when it is indeed a weak attempt to display that which God has not ordained nor given.

So, my question again is this. Have you seen this true gift used in a man of God in a ministry today and if so who?

Happy New Year.....bro joe
 

Chaya

New Member
#5
Those "ministers" you describe do it no differently than the charalatans at the psychic hotlines. They ask leading questions, look for cues, have hidden microphones.


Gifts are given to the body to minister to the body. I have known a number of people who have had true words of knowlege, wisdom and discernment and I have experienced it myself. I have also been wrong, thinking something was from the Lord when it was my own imagination.

I wouldn't be looking to a "man of God" but to people within your own area of relationships that you know and trust - not that they are perfect.

I can tell you about an experience I had. This was about 10 years ago. I came home and my husband was meeting with the guy who read an article about his company and had come over. I said hello, and left to take my son somewhere. I remember exactly where I was, I was sitting at a certain intersection waiting for the light to change when this thought came into my heard, and it was like I heard a voice, although I didn't physically hear the voice. The voice said, "He's the devil." I knew it referred to the man I just met, and I knew it didn't mean he was satan incarnate, but that he was evil.

This person got my husband into a fraudulent business that ruined his business and caused years of financial, emotional and family distress for us. I know that "He's the devil," meant that the devil comes to steal, kill and destroy.

We told this story to a bible counselor who was a staunch Presbyterian cessationist, and he told my husband, "Listen to your wife, she has discernment."

PS He still doesn't listen to me:pray:
 
#6
Chaya,
Please don't misunderstand my question. I am not looking for any man just asking if any have seen or experienced one with a ministry where the gift I describe is evident. In other words, for every counterfeit gift there has to be an original from which it draws its existence from. That's how satan works to deceive the body.
 

Chaya

New Member
#8
To Josreb:

When it comes to "a man in public ministry" there is no way to tell whether that person has a genuine gift if you don't know that person. All you know is a man or ministry's public face. I think it is human nature to desire a guru, to look to a man rather than what the Lord has told us to do. We are to look to the Lord and grow in our own relationship to him and minister one to another I Cor. 12.

The children of Israel built a golden calf. They wanted something they could see, that looked pretty, that they could dance around, rather than an invisible God.

The men and women of God, you are looking for don't have their names up in lights. They like Paul, have written their letters on human hearts.

Any professional ministry has a serious conflict of interest. They need to have good relationships with churches, publishing companies etc. to have a vehicle for their "ministry." They cannot discern the hands that feed them, and IMHO, they fail to discern themselves.

If you are looking for information, that discusses the doctrine and practice of various teachings, you can find it. I know I am not answering your question in the way you would like, but I believe the Lord wants us all to mature in our own discernment, not be babies who need to be watched every moment to make sure we don't mistake a can of paint thinner for our milk bottle (a neighbor's kid did that, but that is another story.)
 
#9
Chaya,
I think we are getting off track from my original question. First, I am not desiring a guru nor any person with a gift instead of the Lord. I am not looking for any as well. I do not know where that came from as it was not part of my original post. I only asked if anyone has observed a ministry where the supernatural was evident in a gift where discernment was displayed or exercised as described in my post. I would not expect to see their name up in lights but would expect the hear of it "if" it was genuine and used to benefit the Lord's work. I asked my question because there are so many counterfeit gifts being touted as real many people, both believers and non-believers, would not know the original if it was evident. Many would list Benny Hinn as one with such a gift but he is a con. You understand what I am driving at?
I was asking those on this forum if they have seen such a gift evident. I go back to my original statement, if there is a counterfeit displayed there has to be the real thing as well.

Please let's stick to the intent of the question and not attempt to read into one's message. If I have not been clear then just ask a question and I'll be happy to clarify.

thx....bro joe
 
#10
Ok, I think I understand what you are saying. I have observed real gifts many times. But if I mentioned the person's names, you wouldn't know them.

That's what I was trying to get at. The real gifts are there, but they are not found with any Rev. Hot Shot's Miracle Ministry. People who serve the Lord do so quietly, they don't rent auditoriums and take out ads saying, "Come and hear ths gifted man of God, see your miracle tonight." They don't have name ministries that send out newsletters to collect money so they can have fancy offices, a large staff to send out more appeals for money or a secretary to answer their phone.

God doesn't give his people gifts so that they can build a career and a livelihood out of it. He gives us all his gifts so we can minister to each other. Joe, it is likely that there is someone in your circle of acquaintances that the Lord has given gifts that will minister to you. I don't know if you are asking this out of curiousity, or if you have a need in your life and are looking for insight.
 
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